Since the beginning of the Russian invasion of Ukraine, he has not given a single political interview. Nor has he made a public comment on this war that is ravaging the heart of Europe. Vladislav Surkov, perhaps the most enigmatic figure in Russia, has retreated into silence. But the man who "created" Vladimir Putin, the mysterious advisor who inspired the writer Giuliano Da Empoli to write his stunning novel "The Wizard of the Kremlin," has something to say about Russia and the man who leads it. It took us some time to get close to him - and to convince him, writes the French newspaper L'Express. Because this dangerous politician, who can be considered the "architect" of the of the Russian political system, distances himself from the man he served for two decades - Vladimir Putin. No one knows what Surkov is doing today. In the interview he gave us, he dodges this question.
Why interview Vladislav Surkov, who represents the exact antithesis of our democratic ideal? Was it necessary to dedicate a cover of L'Express to the man who considers Ukraine an "artificial political entity" that can only be taken "by force", as he stated in an interview with the Russian Telegram channel WarGonzo, a few months before the war began? Absolutely. Giving the floor to the real wizard of the Kremlin is, in a sense, the same as getting inside Vladimir Putin's head. Although he is no longer in power, Surkov still holds all the levers of Putinism. He knows the main points and the goal, since he is the one who largely set them... And that is how this interview should be understood: a rare document that shows us how the Russian authorities, in these times of high international tension, are pursuing their agenda and thinking long-term, thousands of miles away from the fickle Donald Trump.
L'EXPRESS: "There are decades in which nothing happens, and weeks in which decades happen", Lenin said... Is that how it is in Europe today?
VLADISLAV SURKOV: Yes, in recent weeks the US has unleashed a real verbal storm against Europe. But for now this is just a provocation, empty chatter. The main thing is yet to come. Washington is emerging from stagnation (ed. note: reference to Brezhnev's stagnation). They have yet to go through perestroika (restructuring), glasnost (transparency) and new thinking. Soviet perestroika led to the collapse of the Eastern Bloc. Will NATO and the European Union collapse as a result of American perestroika? This question is now on the agenda. It is up to you to decide.
L'EXPRESS: On February 18, the talks in Riyadh began successfully for the Russians. What result can be considered a victory for Moscow?
VLADISLAV SURKOV: The military or military-diplomatic crushing of Ukraine. The division of this artificial quasi-state into its natural fragments. There may be maneuvers, delays or interruptions along the way. But this goal will be achieved.
L'EXPRESS: Have Russia's goals in Ukraine changed after February 24, 2022?
VLADISLAV SURKOV: Its strategic goals have not changed, but the tactical goals have adapted with the implementation of the strategy.
L'EXPRESS: "For Russia, constant expansion is not just another idea, it is the existential condition of our historical existence," you say. What do you think are the borders of Russia?
VLADISLAV SURKOV: I built an official ideology on the basis of the concept of the "Russian world", which already existed in philosophical circles. The Russian world has no borders. The Russian world is everywhere where there is Russian influence, in one form or another: cultural, informational, military, economic, ideological or humanitarian... That is, everywhere. The degree of our influence varies significantly in different regions, but it is never zero. So we will expand in all directions, as far as God wants and as far as we have the strength. The important thing is not to get carried away and not to take on too big a bite.
L'EXPRESS: This interpretation leaves little room for the subjectivity of peoples. What if they do not want to be part of this "Russian world"? Can we force people to join it? And most importantly, why?
VLADYSLAV SURKOV: I do not see in my previous answer even a shadow of denial of the subjectivity of peoples. It was Europe that ignored the subjectivity of the Ukrainian people by supporting two coups in Kiev. In 2014, for example, more than half of Ukrainians spoke Russian daily both at work and at home. Less than half of them support integration into the European Union, and even fewer want NATO. Against the will of the Ukrainian people, or at least against the will of the majority of them, the West is trying to subjugate Ukraine by force, without anyone understanding why. Even as we are discussing this, European weapons, some of which are French, are being used against my country in support of the puppet regime in Kiev, which relies not on the majority of the Ukrainian people, but on its anti-Russian and pro-Western minority. This is a continuation of Western attempts to forcibly colonize Ukraine.
L'EXPRESS: Was the return of Ukraine to Russia's sphere of influence a conscious goal of Russian foreign policy after the collapse of the Soviet Union? In other words, is the annexation of Ukraine a goal that Moscow has been pursuing in various ways since 1991?
VLADISLAV SURKOV: This is Moscow's goal, but it is also Kiev's goal. In different ways, at different times, with varying degrees of success... In Russia, as in Ukraine, after the collapse of the USSR, there have always been many people who thought about rapprochement or union of our countries. And today there are still such people on both sides of the front. It is natural, we are people of the same blood. Peaceful cooperation was thwarted by two coups in Ukraine, supported by the West, in 2005 and 2014. In both cases, Ukrainians were illegally subjected to the rule of an aggressive minority motivated by the legends of politicized ethnography and the illusions of European integration. This minority dragged Ukraine into war.
L'EXPRESS: Don't you think that the war against Russia, on the contrary, forged a Ukrainian nation and an "anti-Russian" identity, including among Russian-speaking Ukrainians? In other words, didn't Russia create what it denied existed?
VLADYSLAV SURKOV: Ukraine is an artificial political entity into which at least three very different regions have been forcibly squeezed: the Russian South and East; the Center, Russian-non-Russian; and the West, anti-Russian. They could not reach an agreement and never did. The war in Ukraine will separate the Russians from the anti-Russians or, to paraphrase the Gospel, the sheep from the goats. Anti-Russian sentiment will not grow. But it will be limited to its historical territory and will stop spreading into Russian land. Perhaps one day Ukraine will become a real state, but only within its natural borders and therefore much smaller.
L'EXPRESS: Europeans are not invited to discussions that primarily concern them. What do you think about this?
VLADISLAV SURKOV: "They are not invited" means nothing. And the Americans were not invited by anyone. They invited themselves, they took the initiative. Russia has been saying for years that it is ready to talk. Europe could have reacted at any moment and started a dialogue. It did not do so. However, others did. However, everyone knows that a lasting settlement of the conflict is impossible without the participation of the EU. A balanced division of Ukraine should include a share for Brussels.
L'EXPRESS: You seem to have a low opinion of the European Union, but you often speak of it as a single space. What form do you think political Europe should take?
VLADISLAV SURKOV: The EU was founded in 1992, immediately after the collapse of the USSR. Your union was built on the ruins of ours. This has turned the heads of your politicians a bit. The EU began to expand furiously and, I would even say, recklessly. It gained excess weight, preferring quantity over quality. The result is an obese, overly collegial governance structure that produces only half-measures. In this context, we have witnessed the emergence of generations of European politicians whose specialty is half-measures. Now Europe must decide whether it is a state or not. Member states have delegated their sovereignty to the EU, but not entirely: another half-measure! As a result, neither the EU nor its members are fully sovereign. We must get out of this precarious intermediate situation either by returning to the previous state of a purely economic community or by taking a decisive step towards a sovereign federation. Both will require willpower and a generous dose of good old authoritarianism. Many Europeans think so. The Euro-Putinists and Euro-Trumpists are growing stronger. Perhaps they will revive Europe. We must give them a chance to save the great European culture, cousin of Russian and American culture. Otherwise, to get an idea of the future of France and other countries, you only need to read Michel Houellebecq's "Submission".
L'EXPRESS: "Our victory in Ukraine will change us and the West. This will be a new step towards the integration of the Far North," you wrote in September 2023 in an article for the news website Aktualnye Kommentarii. Do you still believe in this "Global North" that will integrate Russia, Europe and the United States?
VLADISLAV SURKOV: In the future, the West will become more authoritarian and Russia less authoritarian. The proportions of freedom and discipline in our political systems will converge. It may not happen tomorrow, it may come at the cost of conflict and tragedy, but it is certain that the United States, Europe and Russia will achieve a high degree of mutual understanding and cooperation. It is about the survival of the great northern civilization, to which Russian, European and American culture belong, in the face of almost unbearable demographic pressure from the South.
L'EXPRESS: Why - and how - will Russia become less authoritarian? So far, the system has only evolved towards more power...
VLADISLAV SURKOV: The first goal - the stabilization of Russia's domestic political situation - was achieved in the 2000s. Today we are in a stage of stabilizing the country's international position. When this goal is achieved in turn, we will see the first signs of a gradual loosening of the system.
L'EXPRESS: Could the election of Donald Trump and the rise of nationalist parties in Europe mean the end of what you call "geopolitical loneliness" of Russia?
VLADISLAV SURKOV: Geopolitical loneliness is a constant in the self-perception of our nation. Simply put, this is the perception that a person can only rely on himself and therefore must arm himself with patience, bread and weapons. Trump's coming to power does not change anything. This is not about modern international relations, but about our national consciousness and unconsciousness.
L'EXPRESS: What place would China and the Russian-Chinese alliance occupy in this "Global North" project?
VLADISLAV SURKOV: The basis of China's geopolitical doctrine is diversity, coexistence and cooperation of different civilizations. This is a very well-thought-out and very attractive model of world order. The Great Chinese Civilization will coexist and cooperate with the Great Northern Civilization. The alliance between China and Russia is part of this inter-civilizational cooperation.
L'EXPRESS: You invented "Putinism". Did Trump adapt it to the United States?
VLADISLAV SURKOV: When Trump was first elected, a number of serious American media outlets published articles claiming that his teams had used my propaganda methods and some of my political ideas. I don't know if it was true, half-truth or post-truth. Then the US president publicly stated, and I quote: "The future does not belong to the globalists, but to the patriots"; "The free world must embrace its national roots, which are irreplaceable"; "If you want democracy, hold on to your sovereignty." These are, in short, the principles of sovereign democracy, as I formulated them in the early 2000s and which became the conceptual basis of Putinism. Coincidence? Who knows? In any case, it is clear that ideologically Trump is closer to Putin than to Macron.
L'EXPRESS: Do you, like Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orbán, believe that liberal democracy is obsolete?
VLADISLAV SURKOV: I respect the cultural peculiarities of all peoples, even when they seem incompatible to me. If liberal democracy is a characteristic of the political culture of a country or group of countries, this is their most absolute right. In the same way, if liberal democracy does not suit Russia, this is our right. Liberalism and liberal democracy are not obsolete. What is happening to them now is simply a crisis, they are not dying. On the other hand, the idea that they are universal and inherently superior to other systems is dead.
L'EXPRESS: Can Trump's United States become an ally of Russia?
VLADISLAV SURKOV: Trump does not seem to me to be a person who wants to create allies.
L'EXPRESS: Isn't the system you invented of "democracy with a monarchical archetype" vulnerable because it depends on a single person?
VLADISLAV SURKOV: There is no ideal political system; every model has vulnerabilities. Our model, like all others, has its own risks and codes for self-destruction. It's just that this is the most effective model for our country. It took me ten years to build it, and I saw: it works. We need a tsar. Periods without a tsar always end disastrously for us. Multipolarity is good in foreign policy, not in domestic policy.
L'EXPRESS: Why do you think that periods without a tsar always end in disaster for Russia? Why can't we do without him?
VLADISLAV SURKOV: I could give hundreds of thousands of different answers to this question. I will give you only the shortest of them: I don't know.
L'EXPRESS: Is today's Russia what you imagined in 1999?
VLADISLAV SURKOV: Yes, 99.9%.
L'EXPRESS: To political authoritarianism, the Russian system added a conservative, even reactionary dimension - the role of the church, laws on non-traditional sexual orientation... Do you see conservatism as a tool for mobilizing the Russian political body?
VLADISLAV SURKOV: All the transformations of our political system after 1999 have always been based on conservative and relatively traditionalist ideas. Back then I was already talking about the mental matrix, about the archetypes of our national consciousness, which cannot be ignored. Russian liberals in the late 1980s and early 1990s made the mistake of thinking that Russia was a blank slate on which they could build whatever they wanted. They forgot that Russia has existed for a thousand years, that its foundations were laid long before us, and that they do not only determine our capabilities. They also dictate our impossibilities and set clear boundaries for any future state-building. Political tools are not as important as we like to think. Politics is first and foremost a sphere of emotions, of passions, and only then of tools. It always comes down to the question of power, which is the oldest, darkest, and most irrational aspect of human nature. Political instruments help to ride the waves, but they do not create them.
L'EXPRESS: How would you answer the question of the Russian writer Zamyatin: "Which is better: happiness without freedom or freedom without happiness?"
VLADISLAV SURKOV: Asking the question this way leaves me no choice. Jean-Paul Sartre said: "Man is condemned to be free". Condemned! So I choose freedom, with or without happiness.
L'EXPRESS: What kind of freedom can exist without political freedom?
VLADISLAV SURKOV: For me, there is absolutely nothing political in freedom. For me, a director who, in the conditions of liberal democracy, does not dare to hire a great actor because he has been "cancelled" because of defamatory accusations, is a slave. To me, a white person who kneels before a black person because a white person has once hurt a black person is a slave. To me, a business leader who hires someone to a position of responsibility, not because they are the best, but because they are transgender, is a slave. And yet all these slaves have, at least on paper, all their political freedoms.
L'EXPRESS: What have you been doing since you left the Kremlin?
VLADISLAV SURKOV: I live my private life, which I never talk about publicly.
L'EXPRESS: Does this mean that the active phase of your political activity is over? Have you created everything you wanted to create?
VLADISLAV SURKOV: As I said, the system that I helped create is 99.9% what I imagined. I'm still not sure how to count the remaining 0.1%: is it a slight, unimportant deviation from the plan or is it a significant omission, a mistake on my part? I'll think about it...